Tombs of the Blind Dead (Amando de Ossorio, 1971)

[mark meakin]

I have the OOP Anchor Bay double bill which I've only kept due to the BBFC cuts to TOTBD in the UK boxed set I also own.The version of Return Of the Evil Dead on the 'flipper' is heavily cut anyway so I would'nt bother.

[Jonny H]

No disrepect to anyone here, but some folk get way too picky over minor things - half of which I have no idea what they are going on about. It would ruin a film for me if I went into it looking for things to complain about/annoy me.

I was expecting this kind of a comment - it always seems to crop up whenever anyone has a discussion about the visual look of a film/DVD. To be honest it gets on my nerves a little. Some people are interested in the cinematography of a film, the telecine process and how that film is captured in the digital realm, and I suppose others aren't. This may perhaps not be the best forum for these kinds of discussions. I never go looking for problems but if you read my posts in this thread you'll see that I just didn't enjoy watching the films like I used to. I wanted to know why.

In terms of cinematography I find the Blue Underground Spanish screen capture above to be very bland and dark. The English version, however, I find to be a very striking image. I'm also interested to know why the Blue Underground image is completely blue and whether this was a decision on Blue Undergrounds part as I think it may have been. For me this scene, and many others, no longer work artistically. But if you're not interested in the artistry of film-making then that's fine. No disrepect to anyone here.

[loops]

I have never watched my AB flipper disc. I only bought it because it was in a shop near where I live for £3.

[Jonny H]

I have never watched my AB flipper disc. I only bought it because it was in a shop near were i live for £3.

Perhaps you might want to do a trade?

[MarcMorris]

I'm also interested to know why the Blue Underground image is completely blue and whether this was a decision on Blue Undergrounds part as I think it may have been.

As I said previously, the transfer would have been done by a telecine company chosen by the film's licensors - BU would not have had any involvement in this process. The licensor is based in Europe, BU are based in LA. They would not have chosen to re-grade the digital masters as it's too costly to re-do once the work has already been done.

Today's colorists prefer to go for a more natural look rather than the harsh and contrasty look of older transfers. It's also dependent on the quality of the equipment used, as well as the skill of the operator.

Digital Producer: Telecine Colorist Has the Power

[loops]

Sure, What have you got?

[jacksmith1983]

First things first, I should point out that I have the Anchor Bay UK Blind Dead set. I previously owned the Anchor Bay US flipper of the first two films and to be honest could live with the brief BBFC rape cut to Tombs Of The Blind Dead. While I don't really want to get involved in a row I found the original Spanish language cut of Return Of The Blind Dead to be of perfectly acceptable quality in the UK set.

I agree Jonny that the transfer on the Blue Underground edition does look considerably darker from the screen grabs you've posted. To be honest however, as someone who watches countless DVD-R's of obscure flicks unavailable on DVD mastered from decades old VHS whether one DVD transfer is a shade darker than another is not something I can really bring myself to care too much about. I'm just glad that companies like Blue Underground are/were dedicated to bringing great cult releases such as The Blind Dead Collection. Even at a relatively tender 25 years of age I can (just about) recall a time when we were grateful for a cut UK VHS release of stuff like the first two Blind Dead films, let alone high quality - albeit slightly imperfect - DVD editions containing two alternate cuts of said films.

Sorry if this post reads like I'm saying "belt up Jonny H and just be grateful for what we've got" as that's not my intention at all! I'm just voicing my own opinion. As you say some people are indeed more interested in the cinematography of a film, the telecine process and how that film is captured in the digital realm than others.

I find the pic quailty on Return of the Evil Dead to be much worse, and still stick with the recut english version there.

Have to disagree there. My first encounter with the Blind Dead was back when I was about 16 and bought the Redemption VHS of Return Of The Blind Dead (or Return Of The Evil Dead for those who want to be pedantic... ) off a local market and just fell in love with the film despite it being the heavily edited English cut. However, now that I've discovered the gory pleasures of the original Spanish cut I don't think I could ever go back now.

For the record Return Of The Blind Dead is easily my favourite film in the series.

[Jonny H]

Sorry if this post reads like I'm saying "belt up Jonny H and be gateful for what you've got" as that's not my intention at all! I'm just voicing my own opinion. As you say some people are indeed more interested in the cinematography of a film, the telecine process and how that film is captured in the digital realm than others.

I didn't take your post that way at all and I'm interested to hear your opinion - that was why I started the thread in the first place. My discussion is not really about Blue Underground here; I'm primarily interested in Ossorio's visual style and the cinematography of the film itself. The two are obviously linked though. Latarnia may be a better place for discussions on the aesthetics of Spanish horror films.

While I don't really want to get involved in a row I found the original Spanish language cut of Return Of The Blind Dead to be of perfectly acceptable quality in the UK set.

Yeah, that's now my preferred version of the three I have and the one I'll be watching in the future. This is also my favourite Blind Dead film. It retreads a lot of the same ground as the first film but I actually think it does so more effectively.

Loops - I'll send you a PM shortly.

[ecc]

The licensor is based in Europe, BU are based in LA. They would not have chosen to re-grade the digital masters as it's too costly to re-do once the work has already been done.

Point taken but I believe Bill Lustig himself has been involved with either the transfers or the post-processing of some of the films BU has put out. Perhaps the regrading was down to the PAL SD conversion rather than the HD master(?).

However, now that I've discovered the gory pleasures of the original Spanish cut I don't think I could ever go back now.

I'm not sure how much the Spanish language versions of either film reflect the actual Spanish cuts. Both would have been heavily censored in Spain. I think what Atlas International had for both films were integral cuts submitted by De Ossorio and co. to be dubbed and recut as they saw fit for international distribution (i.e. the movement of the flashback scenes to the start of the films on the English versions, the trimming of certain establishing shots, etc). I believe the elements for the Spanish DVDs which reflect these longer cuts were supplied by Atlas International to Spain.

[jacksmith1983]

This is also my favourite Blind Dead film. It retreads a lot of the same ground as the first film but I actually think it does so more effectively.

I agree 100% with you there Jonny. As wonderful as Tombs Of The Blind Dead is I always found its middle third, particularly the stuff dealing with Virginia's resurrection, to be a a bit slow and uninvolving. By contrast Return Of The Blind Dead is brilliantly paced throughout, has some great scares and grants the Templar's a lot more screen time.

[Jonny H]

Today's colorists prefer to go for a more natural look rather than the harsh and contrasty look of older transfers.

For me I think you've hit the nail on the head with this comment Marc. I've just finished watching the Shout Factory DVD of Luigi Batzella's Devil's Wedding Night and even though it's absolutely littered with all kinds of damage I found it an absolute joy to watch. It's just a decent telecine of a good quality but severely damaged vintage print. For me it was far more enjoyable than the glossy modern look of the Blind Dead transfers.

Similarly I absolutely love the look of the old Redemption transfers of Jean Rollin films such as Fascination and Lips of Blood. Usually I'm very happy with most modern transfers; I like the look of all the Severin and Synapse DVDs I've seen for example. These Blind Dead transfers looked a bit too much like revisionism to me though.

Something Weird Video in conjunction which Image Entertainment are (or were ) absolute gods, as far as I'm concerned, for their transfers of vintage films.

[Someone Weird]

Hey Jonny H, my previous post wasn't neccessarily directed at you, hope you didn't take too much offence. However, what I will say is what irks me a little is that I read threads on forums such as this of companies (i.e BCI) going down the pan who are tyring to get this kind of material out for fans, yet those who are around (ie. Blue Underground) and doing great work have their releases slated over what I personally consider small and trivial matters. It makes me wonder who'd want to release this kind of stuff when they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Like many here, I used to watch this kind of stuff on Nth generation bootleg and so the DVD's for the most part can be a revelation to my eyes. Again, I am not directing my comments at you personally, and hope you don't take it that way....but that's how I feel when I read some of these sort of threads about discs which, to me, are first rate.

[ecc]

For me I think you've hit the nail on the head with this comment Marc. I've just finished watching the Shout Factory DVD of Luigi Batzella's Devil's Wedding Night and even though it's absolutely littered with all kinds of damage I found it an absolute joy to watch. It's just a decent telecine of a good quality but severely damaged vintage print. For me it was far more enjoyable than the glossy modern look of the Blind Dead transfers.

Print contrast is another issue with these transfers. I'm not sure about the newer BU transfer but the Elite transfer of TOMBS was derived from a new low-contrast print whereas I'm thinking that the English version was derived from a theatrical print. How much leeway do technicians have in adjusting contrast when creating a digital master from a negative rather than a print source? I would imagine that some of the darkness of the Spanish version comes from the colorists striving for absolute black in the blacks as part of that naturalistic look.

Its interesting that there are two title cards for the film. The English version on the disc has THE BLIND DEAD in a generic font but other English releases have had the title TOMBS OF THE BLIND DEAD in a font similar to the Spanish title card.

[Jonny H]

Hey Jonny H, my previous post wasn't neccessarily directed at you, hope you didn't take too much offence. However, what I will say is what irks me a little is that I read threads on forums such as this of companies (i.e BCI) going down the pan who are tyring to get this kind of material out for fans, yet those who are around (ie. Blue Underground) and doing great work have their releases slated over what I personally consider small and trivial matters. It makes me wonder who'd want to release this kind of stuff when they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

No problem Someone Weird. Like I said before though, it's not really about Blue Underground. I was discussing these films before BU even existed so I'm not going to stop now just because they've released them on DVD. I'm interested in discussing the visual look of classic films.

[drac]

So is the BU set uncut? And what footage is missing from the Anchor bay UK collection?

[Jonny Rojo]

So is the BU set uncut? And what footage is missing from the Anchor bay UK collection?

BU set is uncut.

ABUK set has one film cut - 'TOMBS...'

"R2 United Kingdom- Anchor Bay UK - Yes, Spanish version - 96:51 min (PAL). 16 seconds by the BBFC:
-Bet's rape scene.
-Girl chained to a cross (flashback)"

More info at this link to DVD Compare

[jacksmith1983]

The Anchor Bay UK DVD of the original Tombs Of The Blind Dead suffered 16 seconds of cuts to a relatively mild rape scene. The Blue Underground disc is uncut.

The Blue Underground set also features both the full, original Spanish language versions of both Tombs Of The Blind Dead and Return Of The Blind Dead plus the alternate, shorter, English dubbed international versions of both films. The Anchor Bay UK set only has the Spanish language versions.

[ecc]

It's been a while since I watched it. I still like it but I have noticed its weak middle. The whole Virginia rising from the morgue and attacking two supporting characters seems more like a gimmick to enliven the long stretch between the two Templar setpieces. That the professor who delivers necessary exposition just happens to be related to Pedro allowing for the cops to visit the museum (as opposed to just following Roger and Betty's movements) is also a little contrived.

[ecc]

Caps from a DVD rip of the Paragon tape (which runs longer than the English version on the BU disc) compared with Jonny H.'s caps:

The first Paragon cap looks like the Spanish version but the other two don't really correspond color-wise to either image. Certainly inconsistent quality control of the processing of the English US print for a "grindhouse" feature might have something to do with this as well as whatever creative liberties the telecine colorists might have taken with the Spanish cut.

[MarcMorris]

There was also a UK video release circa 1983 (on the Precision label) and a release in Holland. These featured the English language export version and not the heavily censored US "Blind Dead" print.

I'm sure release prints would have looked just as variable depending on print and projector settings etc, as well as projector lightbulb brightness.