Guns N' Roses

[cloud]

I thought I'd start up a Guns N' Roses thread because this band is so good it just doesn't do them justice being on a "Random Music Thread".

So Chinese Democracy is up for pre-order (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000NQDFP8/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05) with a street date of 25/8/08 (apparently! I'll believe it when I see it) and according to Sebastian Bach they have 4 albums worth of material. The songs in their various versions have been doing the rounds for quite a while and here are a few of them:

T.W.A.T. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWSihodc9TA&feature=related) | Better (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9zkXA7q2LA) | I.R.S. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zfOu9ANt3c) | Chinese Democracy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDRfA0ZXsI)

I've had a few debates with some people who hate their new sound and wish they were more like they were in the late '80s. I dunno about you lot but I can accept that bands change and move forward from a certain sound, for a start as you get older your personality changes and also if they did another Appetite For Destruction (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000026E3O/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05) now they'd be laughed off!

Anyway, any other fans? What do you think to their new material (I love it)? And what's your favourite GnR album/song etc?

This band played a huge part in shaping my music taste.

[MarcMorris]

I saw 'em back in the 80s - first at the Marquee (remember that place?) then at Hammersmith odeon, supported by Mudhoney and Faster Pussycat :)

I can't say I'm much of a fan though to be honest - Axl's voice sounds just too bloody whyny for my liking.

A few friends like Velvet Revolver (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Velvet%20Revolver&tag=mondoerotico05&index=music&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) though I haven't heard much of their stuff.

[AndyBlade]

I saw them at Donnington in 88 when I was a mere 14 years old. Much as I like their old stuff, I think they're a product of their time and they've been gone for too long and changed their line up too many times to have a great deal of success once the initial wave of nostalgia has worn off - if this album actually does get a release.

November Rain is still one of my all time favourite music videos though.

[cloud]

I haven't got round to buying any of Velvet Revolver's (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Velvet%20Revolver&tag=mondoerotico05&index=music&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) albums yet but from what I've heard I haven't been bowled over. Scott Weiland was perfect for Stone Temple Pilots (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Stone%20Temple%20Pilots&tag=mondoerotico05&index=music&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) but in a Guns N' Roses line-up? Nah.

Axl Rose's voice always been a subject of love or hate. I like it though. I wish I could have watched them live, I was a bit too young but if and when they tour this new album I'll be booking my tickets!

Any of you listened to their new material? I'm curious to hear what you think. Just approach with an open mind and don't expect anything like their older work.

[AndyBlade]

From Billboard.com...

Dr Pepper has revealed that it will give everyone in America free drinks if Guns N' Roses release a new album in 2008.

The soft drinks firm claimed every person in the country will be entitled to a free beverage if the rockers release their long-awaited Chinese Democracy LP by the end of the year.

In a press release the firm told frontman Axl Rose that they understand why it has taken so long to produce the record and said former band members Slash and Buckethead would be exempt from the free drink deal.

The company said: "Tired of a world in which Americans idolise wannabe singers and musicals about high schoolers pass as rock ‘n roll music, Dr Pepper is encouraging (ok, begging) Axl Rose to finally release his 17-years-in-the-making belabored masterpiece, Chinese Democracy, in 2008.

"In an unprecedented show of solidarity with Axl, everyone in America, except estranged GNR guitarists Slash and Buckethead, will receive a free can of Dr Pepper if the album ships some time - anytime! - in 2008.

"Dr Pepper supports Axl, and fully understands that sometimes you have to make it through the jungle before you get it right."

[Wayne]

I was crazy on Guns & Roses in the early 90's

I went to see them at Wembley Stadium on 31.08.1991
I'm sure it was this concert that had (Sebastian Bach) Skid Row as guest (might also have been nine inch nails, just can't remember)

I also went to see them again in May 93 at Milton Keynes.

My all time favourite song probably is "November Rain", but at the time I would always put "Get in the Ring" on the jukebox in pubs just to see the reaction of peoples faces. Usually it got taken off :rolleyes:.

Don't quote me on the dates, without going in the loft and finding my ticket stubs I'm just going from memory and Wiki for the dates. I do remember when we went to see them at Milton Keynes they had a sofa on the stage, Dizzy Reed had broken his foot or leg (motorbike accident I think) and made an appearance on stage and sat on the sofa drinking beer.

[Rissos]

I loved them, but unfortunately never got to see them live. Sweet Child of Mine would be my favourite, but there were many greats.

I watched a programme about GnR on the Biography Channel a couple of weeks ago - there were lots of interviews (although none with Axel), but it was clear that they never licenced any of their music, so you have an 80 minute programme about Guns and Roses without a single note of their music! Crap.:mad:

[drterror666]

IMO, G'n'R only ever released two good products - Live Like A Suicide and Appetite For Destruction, which is a cast-iron classic. Lies was OK, but only because it had the Live Like A Suicide EP on one side.

Use Your Illusion I & II (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Use%20Your%20Illusion%20guns&tag=mondoerotico05&index=music&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) was a big mess. There was a good album in there struggling to get out, but it was surrounded by so much crap! So, for me, they've lost it big time these days.

[tall dude]

IMO, G'n'R only ever released two good products - Live Like A Suicide and Appetite For Destruction, which is a cast-iron classic. Lies was OK, but only because it had the Live Like A Suicide EP on one side.

Use Your Illusion I & II was a big mess. There was a good album in there struggling to get out, but it was surrounded by so much crap! So, for me, they've lost it big time these days.

Whats more,velvet revolver have also split up.
It would be great to see an original g'n'r reunion,that would make loads of spondoola,but getting all of those guys in the one room at the same time could be a bit of a problem.
Still,they left us with the brilliance of appetite.After releasing that,it was gonna be an uphill struggle from then on.Money,fame,power,rampant ego's....sigh.:(

[cloud]

Whats more,velvet revolver have also split up.

Oh dear, what a shame ;).

Hey Docky T 666, what do you think to GnR's new material?

[jacksmith1983]

Personally I think Guns N' Roses are one of the most overrated rock bands ever and I agree that the Use Your Illusion I & II (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Use%20Your%20Illusion%20guns&tag=mondoerotico05&index=music&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) albums were bloated , which I always found to be a shame as there were some really great songs (You Could Be Mine and Coma to name but two) amidst the overblown, self-indulgant dross. They were essentially two Axl Rose solo albums with the rest of the band lurking in the background, that's how it always come across to me anyway.

As timeless as some of their classic tracks may be I personally think there were much better bands around at the time who never got the same mainstream recognition.

[drterror666]

Hey Docky T 666, what do you think to GnR's new material?

I must admit that I haven't listened to G'n'R's latest output. Is it worth it?

[cloud]

It is worth it, that's why I put YouTube links for 4 of my favourites from it. Have a listen, you may be very pleasantly surprised. You too Jack, they're much different from Use Your Illusions I & II and well anything they did before.

I'd agree that there was a lot of crap on Use Your Illusions I & II by the way. A lot of sounded like that you'd see on a B-sides album. Those 2 albums did have some real classics on though. Songs like...

Civil War
November Rain
Dust And Bones
You Could Be Mine
14 Years
Live And Let Die
Shotgun Blues
Don't Cry
Locomotive
Right Next Door To Hell
Back Off Bitch
Coma
Garden Of Eden
Pretty Tied Up
Estranged

So there's 15 good'uns out of 30 total, 50% ain't bad is it...? I could probably name more but I'd have to play the albums through track by track and I can't be bothered at the moment.

Nobody's perfect and even Appetite For Destruction had a couple of stinkers on it.

[drterror666]

Nobody's perfect and even Appetite For Destruction had a couple of stinkers on it.

It did? They must have left them off the album I own then! :p :D

[cloud]

Well "Out To Get Me" and "Mr. Brownstone" didn't do an awful lot for me. The song "Civil War" alone is better than anything on Appetite For Destruction. In my opinion of course.

In fact look at Civil War and it shows how much GnR did mature with Use Your Illusions. Some of their songs on there blew away their older work.

[drterror666]

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on that point as I think Appetite For Destruction is a classic album. There are a few songs on Use Your Illusion that come close(ish) to the quality, but, imho, they just can't touch it.

I'm not sure that G'n'R did mature with Use Your Illusion, it's just that Axl's ego just got that much bigger!

[cloud]

Well my point is that though Appetite For Destruction was a much more consistent album than either of the Illusion albums I think some of the songs on Illusion 1 & 2 showed a surprising evolution from them. Could Axl Rose have written an anthem like Civil War, Estranged or November Rain in 1987? I seriously doubt that.

That's all I'm saying :).

[tall dude]

Well my point is that though Appetite For Destruction was a much more consistent album than either of the Illusion albums I think some of the songs on Illusion 1 & 2 showed a surprising evolution from them. Could Axl Rose have written an anthem like Civil War, Estranged or November Rain in 1987? I seriously doubt that.

That's all I'm saying :).

Well,he did give us sweet child o' mine,which was/is an absolute classic,and is never off the radio even today.
Unusual to find such a sentimental song on such a raw album.

[drterror666]

Could Axl Rose have written an anthem like Civil War, Estranged or November Rain in 1987? I seriously doubt that.

Now, imagine an album where Axl's ego didn't take over and all the songs were along the same lines of the three you mentioned. We'd have had another must buy, instead of the ego trip that was released. If you're going to release a double album like that, at least take a leaf out of Cardiacs' epic Sing To God effort. Now, that's how you make a double album!

[cloud]

As I say I think there were atleast 15 good songs spread out over the two albums, just a shame they're surrounded by crap, it's a pain to keep having to press the skip button!

I'm too familiar with Sweet Child O'Mine, played it to death as a kid. I can't play it now :(.

So what's everyone's opinion about The Spaghetti Incident album? I'd agree with the consensus that it's crap, but it's enjoyable crap! :D The guitar riff at the beginning of the song Ain't It Fun is simply incredible.

[drterror666]

The Spaghetti Incident? I think we'll leave that one to rest, shall we? ;)

If I can remember to, I'll try to put together the track listing for my personal Use Your Illusion album. You may find it rocks a bit!

[cloud]

Excellent mate, I look forward to seeing it.

Hey come on you've got to atleast admit that Slash's opening guitar riff on Ain't It Fun is oustanding.

[drterror666]

OK, I'll see what I can do, but I would definitely have November Rain as the last song on the album. It has THAT riff at the end.

[jacksmith1983]

As essentially pointless as The Spaghetti Incident was it still had a few good tracks. Aint It Fun easily stands alongside the bands best work in my opinion and their cover versions of Fear's I Don't Care About You and their short yet brutal cover of The Misfits Attitude are fun listens too.

Originally some of these tracks were meant to form part of a combined package of the two Use Your Illusion albums and were then planned as a stand alone EP in 1992. However, both of these ideas were nixed leading to the band recording several more covers to make up the full album that eventually became The Spaghetti Incident.

Incidentally what did people think of their cover of the Rolling Stones Sympathy For The Devil which formed part of the Interview With The Vampire soundtrack and was also released as a single. Personally I enjoyed it although it is more than a little overblown.

[Marty Moose]

I saw one of the 'new' incarnations of GNR at Leeds festival around four years ago (Buckethead/Finck) and the last tour with Bumblefoot in last year in Newcastle. Both times they were bloody brilliant.

I've got high hopes for the new album, although when it will come out is a mystery. The Illusion albums get a rough deal IMO, for certain there are some filler tracks, but there's still enough material to make two scorching ten track albums there. I think Axl, for good or bad strives to push the boundaries of the style of music that they make. Slash is more of a traditional blues player, and given the choice of the make or break freakshow that is new GNR or the stale old hat rock the rest of the band have been putting out with Velvet Revolver I know which I'd go for.

I think Axl is in a no win situation really - if he goes with a new sound he'll be critised by some of the loyal fanbase, if he tries to retread past glories he risks sounding irrelevant. The album delay is either down to apprehension to the response to the material, or a desperate attempt to polish turds. Either way there's massive expectation that can't possible by met, and that's Axl's fault for engineering such a delay.

Whatever happens, if they have Buckethead recordings intact, and Ron Thal playing lead work the guitars on the new album will be amazing, even if the songs end up beind letdowns.

[jacksmith1983]

On the subject of Slash is anyone familiar with his now defunct outfit Slash's Snakepit?

I thought their first album It's Five O'Clock Somewhere (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000000OU6/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05) was good if a little patchy.


It's Five O'Clock Somewhere: amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000000OU6/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mt378cY2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000000OU6/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

[christats]

Eric Dover,I think that was his name was the singer for Slash's Snakepit wasn't he.?

Eric Dover a replacement guitarist for Jason Falkner in the beatles obsessed short lived band Jellyfish (a guilty pleasure of mine). My nephew had It's Five O'Clock Somewhere or whatever the snakepit album was.

I've heard 1 song of it. So I am familiar with the name, not the songs.

For the record I went through a phase when I thought Appetite For Destruction was great.

I really cannot stand Axel Rose as a singer,much in the same way that I could never get AC DC.

I do appreciate a good riff though.

[Wynter]

not sure about the new stuff, have to admit that the old stuff gets a lot of grace purely by being the music I grew up with - not sure i'd like all of it if I heard it for the first time today but plenty of the songs are just iconic

quite like velvet revolver

[MarcMorris]

Latest:

Blog Leaks Tracks From Guns 'N Roses' Chinese Democracy (http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/06/guns-n-roses-pu.html)

Blogger leaks new Guns N' Roses songs (http://www.upi.com/Entertainment_News/2008/06/21/Blogger_leaks_new_Guns_N_Roses_songs/UPI-63691214083184/)

Guns N’ Roses leaked to YouTube (http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/guns-n-roses-leaked-to-youtube-161405)


Chinese Democracy: amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000NQDFP8/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

[Myersfan73]

Read Slash's autobiography (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0061351423/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05).

It sheds a lot of light on the demise of the original Guns n Roses, IMHO it's one of the best biography's I've ever read. Saul's life story would make a great film.

Appertite For Destruction is an undissputed classic album.

Use your Illusions would have been a great follow up had it not been bogged down by some complete crap.

As for the Chinese Democracy what a load of utter waz, my mate gave me a demo version at the begining of last year & boy I'm not surprised it's not out.

Axel Rose is a fruit cake, a man with no realisation of what he's doing.

Slash: amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0061351423/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hss6GazqL._SS500_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0061351423/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

[cloud]

Hey Myersfan73 I was agreeing with everything you said then up until this bit,

As for the Chinese Democracy what a load of utter waz, my mate gave me a demo version at the begining of last year & boy I'm not surprised it's not out.

Axel Rose is a fruit cake, a man with no realisation of what he's doing.


I've listened to quite a lot of the new songs in differing versions and so far I don't have a bad word to say about any of them. Drterror666 and others have criticised Axl Rose for letting ego take over and ruin parts of Use Your Illusions and I'd go along with that to a large degree though I've continually argued that he produced such quality on there that it cancelled out the crap.

To say that he's a clueless fruit cake is a bit unfair I feel. OK fair enough you don't like the new album and believe me you're not alone, I've come across more people who dislike it than like it, but there are people out there like myself who absolutely love the new direction GnR have taken. One thing I've noticed with the naysayers is most if not all say "they miss Slash" or make some reference to him, well OK let's look at Velvet Revolver then; more people (myself included) slag them off than give them praise. It sounds washed up, tired, embarrassingly out of place and perhaps if they had Axl instead of Scott Weiland - who quite frankly is way out of his depth in that band, Stone Temple Pilots were great but were nothing like a blues band - they'd have worked. The reality is that they didn't have him and as far as I'm concerned it shows how Axl was more important to GnR than Slash ever was. Velvet Revolver lack spark and Slash is churning out the same recycled music he produced for GnR and Slash's Snakepit, a one trick pony? I'd say so.
Now look at Axl, if he went down the same path he took back in the day for GnR then unless it really clicked he'd have been criticised and laughed off just like VR have been to a degree. He's taken a new path and showed just how talented he really is. He's reinvented himself and I hope he reinvents music, the world NEEDS Chinese Democracy, it's going to be a real kick up the backside to a lot of "musicians" now and as far as I'm concerned this is a prime example of what music should sound like, it's as catchy as you like without becoming too radio friendly and even cliched.

Maybe it's an age thing, I was lucky enough to have started growing up around the time when the 80s metal sound was dying out and was being replaced with more hard hitting and reflective early 90s grunge and industrial. I like 80s metal but have always been more drawn to industrial and the like. A lot of GnR fans tend to be a bit older and didn't really "get" the whole 90s sound, so I can understand why it isn't clicking for some.
To me this new sound is more of a homage to grunge than it is to a band like AC/DC. I think it's bloody stunning, Axl Rose has outdone himself and I think it really is a breath of fresh air. Now only the likes of TOOL and Smashing Pumpkins would release more.

Bottom line... music evolves and moves on. Attitudes change, people grow up and move on to other things. So let's try and keep an open mind. I've seen some people write off Chinese Democracy on the strength of a couple of songs, it's a ridiculous attitude to take is that!

[cloud]

Brand new leak and arguably the best song to surface from Chinese Democracy yet. Quickly listen to this before it gets taken down:

Guns N' Roses: Shackler's Revenge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isrJOgYE3V4)

How catchy is this song. I believe it's going to be released as a single too, Chinese Democracy is creeping ever closer.
Dr. Terror listen to this and eat your words ;)

Yowza!

[Timmy Lea]

I saw 'em back in the 80s - first at the Marquee (remember that place?) then at Hammersmith odeon, supported by Mudhoney and Faster Pussycat :)

I can't say I'm much of a fan though to be honest - Axl's voice sounds just too bloody whyny for my liking.

A few friends like Velvet Revolver (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Velvet%20Revolver&tag=mondoerotico05&index=music&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) though I haven't heard much of their stuff.

I had no idea Mudhoney played on that bill.

G'n'R probably changed my life, they were the first band other than Pink Floyd that I heard use swear words in their lyrics, which, in 1987 at the age of 14, I no doubt thought was extremely cool. I suppose they were a Sex Pistols for the hair metal, grebo 'n' goth generations. They were the first band to make me want to put down my Fangoria, slap some makeup on and meet girls. Although I later regretted the Fangoria bit.

However, I went off them in the 90s (I did eventually grow to like the USE YOUR ILLUSION albums, bloated and overlong thought they are, but I never bothered seeing them live) and I found Axl to be a whining, petulant, snotty little **** who I never wanted to meet. Being brought up as a Stones and Dylan fan, naturally my favourite member was Izzy, so after he left I lost interest, although Gilby Clarke was kind of OK (his solo albums are good)

I have listened to people drathering on about the so-called 'Chinese Democracy' since 2001 (a music journalist friend of mine once went as far as to claim that the album didn't even exist, and that the title was a deliberate joke clue to that- ie 'The White Negro' 'The Blind Man Who Can See' 'The Gay Heterosexual'- see what he's getting at?) and I can honestly say I no longer give a damn. It's 2008, we now have reformed versions of infinitely superior bands such as the Stooges, New York Dolls, Hanoi Rocks and Rose Tattoo- all of whom G'N'R shamelessly ripped off anyway- and I no longer think that dressing 'sleazaaay' and saying 'mother****er' every two minutes is a prerequisite for life.

And they'll be crap now, without both Izzy and Slash- the guys who actually wrote the SONGS the first time round!!! But, prove me wrong. If someone wants to burn me a copy should the album actually ever materialise, then I'll be more than happy, but I sure as hell ain't buying it. As the song goes, take that one to heart.....

[cloud]

Sheeeeesh! With attitudes like the one shown in the last post it's no wonder Guns N' Roses don't want to release Chinese Democracy :rolleyes:.

And yes the album does exist. There are demos all over the internet so before stating "they'll be crap now" I'd urge you to have a listen, it won't cost you a penny though it looks like your mind is already made up in advance.

In my opinion and based solely on the 7 or 8 songs I've heard from their new album I'd go as far as to say this is some of the best stuff they've ever recorded. Your point about Izzy I can understand but Slash? We're not in 1987 anymore ;).

In my opinion GnR always was Axl Rose. Just like Smashing Pumpkins has always been Billy Corgan, VAST has always been Jon Crosby, NIN has always been Trent Reznor etc etc.

[jacksmith1983]

Sheeeeesh! With attitudes like the one shown in the last post it's no wonder Guns N' Roses don't want to release Chinese Democracy

I think a more realistic way of looking at it is after over a deacde now of intermitent hype is it really all that surprising that music fans are cynical about Chinese Democracy?

Also why use the adjective "they" when describing Guns N' Roses? To look upon G n' R as a legitimate band really is ridiculous in my opinion, it all became the Axl Rose Show a very long time ago now.

It's interesting that you namedrop Billy Corgan too. There's another artist who's took to using the name of his old band to put some commercial weight behind what is basically an unrelated vanity project. A bit like Axl Rose with Chinese Democracy... ;)

[cloud]

And what's wrong with it being "the Axl Rose show" exactly? If it gets good results (which for me it does) then I'm all for it. Axl Rose is perhaps the most charismatic and talented frontman in the world of metal as far as I'm concerned. I'm thinking of bands I like and frontmen who come close and I can't think of one.

A while ago Matt Sorum said that Axl was one of the most difficult people he had ever come across but could always be counted on to sell out arenas. I think that says it all.

Just out of interest, have you bothered to listen to any of the Chinese Democracy demos, Jack?

Shackler's Revenge Is Back On YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfLBdHcNbuo)

[jacksmith1983]

For the record Cloud I never stated that Chinese Democracy would not be worth listening to, just that I could understand music fans indifference after all these years of false hype. I will certainly reserve judgment until I finally get to listen to the finished article, that is assuming it ever graduates beyond an array of demo's floating around on the internet. I have to say that I really do have my doubts, but then can you really blame me? For what it's worth no I haven't listened to the demo's. I was only ever a casual fan of G n' R (there were much better bands in that vein IMO) and there is plently of other good music out there to tide me over until Chinese Democracy hits the shelves, assuming it ever does.

Moving on I agree that Axl is an underrated songwriter, a fine vocalist and (when he puts in the effort) a good showman, however I think you're really getting carried away with this whole "perhaps the most charismatic and talented frontman in the world of metal" schtick. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I really don't think Axl has a thing on Bruce Dickinson, Rob Halford, Vince Neil, Ronnie James Dio or Ozzy Osbourne (back in his day) to name but a few in terms of either vocal talent or stage presence.

Finally there is nothing wrong per se with Guns N' Roses becoming the Axl Rose Show. Megadeth is the Dave Mustaine show, Nine Inch Nails is the Trent Reznor show, Zwan was basically just a Billy Corgan indulgence, but all still offer(ed) great music. The problem as regards to the Axl Rose Show is unlike the other examples I cited the surrounding media circus and petty controversies overshadowed Axl's music a very long time ago.

[cloud]

I never said you did. I was only asking out of curiosity. It's your prerogative of course but I'd strongly recommend you do give them a listen, just to whet your appetite if anything. The album is coming, slowly but surely and really there have been more developments in the last year than there have been in the last 6 or 7 years. Yes it is a long and frustrating wait but you have to understand that there is a lot of politics involved in this album, in fact the whole thing is a mess and will get a whole lot worse before it gets better. In the meantime Axl has to a degree turned that negative into a bit of positive by tweaking up the production of each song, sadly that's a double edged sword because it's costing money that someone has to claw back when it is released. It will make money and I could place a bet on the majority of these naysayers buying it once it does get released just out of curiosity more than anything. I think Shackler's Revenge for instance is an explosive song and is as good as anything GnR have done before, Robin Finck is definitely being used to good effect. Likewise with others such as There Was A Time and the catchy as hell Better etc.

Shackler's Revenge is finished and is single material. So there really is no excuse to not give that song a go.

You've listed some good frontmen there, but better than Axl Rose? I don't think so. Perhaps I'm biased but I mean what I say about him. The closest to him on that list is Dave Mustaine but let's be honest, Mustaine has always been a poor song writer, his lyrics aren't exactly brilliant imo. Still let's not move this off topic.

[jacksmith1983]

As I say you're entitled to your opinion but I really don't think Axl was more charismatic or talented than Dickinson, Halford, Dio, Osbourne, etc. Those are frontmen who whatever their problems ruled the stage come showtime and filled arena's for decades. They never - to my knowledge - threw public hissy fits, accosted fans trying to take a photo, brawled in the crowd or walked off the stage ten minutes into a set inciting riots. From the minute they begun playing the arena's in the early nineties Guns N' Roses live has been synonymous with disaster and farce from the Use Your Illusions Tour right through to their UK festival appearances of recent years. The reasons for that all centre around Axl and for that reason alone I really don't think you can class him as one of the "great frontmen".

[cloud]

You've just underlined reasons why I like him so much. He's a maverick and doesn't follow "the rules". I always smile whenever I think about that spat he had with Kurt Cobain all those years ago. Now that is entertainment! :D

[jacksmith1983]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then because what you define as being a "maverick" I define as being an overly precious, arrogant little dictator with no regard for the fans who were parting with their ticket money.

I thought the Cobain spat basically amounted to Cobain snubbing Axl prompting Axl to throw a hissy fit due to the fact someone had dared treat him like something less than a deity? Correct me if I'm wrong?

[Vaughan]

Axl Rose is a bit yesterday, isn't he? Or day before yesterday? Or last week sometime?

I've been on an Aerosmith kick lately - Axl looks like he modeled himself on Tyler, only he appears to have lost the plot after one album.

[jacksmith1983]

Steve Tyler - yet another frontman with far more talent and charisma than Axl Rose.

[drterror666]

Absolutely, definitely seconded!

[Vaughan]

Don't want to side track the thread - so I'll finally say........

I saw the second Aerosmith album in a second hand store for 3 quid, and bought it while on a road trip. Nostalgia kicked in, and I went to a huge HMV store in Harrow..... nothing doing... so Amazon it was.... and picked up every album up to Draw the Line (which to me is the cream of their output) for 4 quid each - shipped.

Hence I'm currently playing their stuff. The first album has some classic blues riffs... Toys in the Attic drives hard.... great stuff.

Anyway.... moving on.

[jacksmith1983]

Do we really have to move on? ;)

Do you have any particular fondness for Aerosmith's second big run from Permanent Vacation onwards (I don't really count Done With Mirrors)?

Personally I thought that with albums like Permanent Vacation and Pump they beat the likes of Guns N' Roses at their own game. Even 1997's largely slated Nine Lives album rocked hard in places.

[Vaughan]

Oh alright... a little longer. ;)

As I recall.... Aerosmith started... ended.... came back with Permanent Vacation... and then have moved on.

They're a decent band - I love their blues/funk riffs. At the time they were first peddling their stuff, they were seen as some kind of competitor of Kiss. Which in retrospect is pretty damn funny.

Anyway - I've been listening to Aerosmith lately, as I've said. It's a fascinating listen. The short version of the answer to your question is "No, I've no real interest in Permanent Vacation onward."

Basically I'm enjoying their development. The first album is stripped down, low-fi blues. Their cover of Walkin' the Dog is terrific. It's all terrific. The second album, like so many second albums, isn't quite up to snuff with the first, but they'd developed a heavier sound and some of their own voice.

By Toys in the Attic they were writing the classics that would live on forever - Walk This Way (the original please!) and Sweet Emotion among them. The album rocks quite hard at times, and the riffs and sophistication of song construction are very evident. When Rocks comes.... they're stretching out a bit. A good deal of funk is inherent in the tunes by now. Then we have Draw the Line, which was essentially their melt down record. However, I like it. The production is messy, but some great songs win through - I Wanna Know Why, Get it Up, Kings and Queens, The Hand that Feeds, and Sight for Sore Eyes are all classic Aerosmith, imo.

Then....and this likely won't please you...came Rock in a Hard Place. This is the one without Hamilton and Joe Perry. Shouldn't have worked at all - right. But I love this album! Lightning Strikes, Bolivian Ragamuffin, Jig It Up - great stuff. If that wasn't enough, the cover of Cry Me a River is brilliant. This album has some great funk undertones. As I say - shouldn't have worked at all. The cover came out around the time of Spinal Tap - and seeing Stonehenge front center wasn't good. :D

I didn't rebuy Done With Mirrors, will hold off comment.

Permanent Vacation was their big comeback, and the last time I saw them live. It's a decent album. However, it *was* the comeback, and as part of my rediscovery, it's not something I'm all that excited about going back too.

After that Aerosmith allowed themselves to get productized. Great riffs? Sure. But they were just being Aerosmith at the point, with silly (admittedly catchy) ballads and the like. Basically - they did what they did, but it really wasn't very interesting to me. Maybe I'm missing out, but after Permanent Vacation they struck me as essentially going through the motions.

So there you have it. I've enjoyed hearing them grow. I'm sure their newer stuff is nice and loud, with great.... well everything I suppose. But I don't feel compelled to go there right now.

Aerosmith's growth is phenomenal. I like them a lot. But I'm drawing the line at... well Draw the Line. Just because....

Basically I wouldn't even begin to compare Guns and Roses with Aerosmith. G&R were essentially an 80's hair band that were very popular with the MTV college crowd at the time.... that was my experience anyway. They made what - 5 albums? And nothing since around 93 as I recall. They came - were popular... fell out with people, fell out with each other... made a lot of money, and burned out. What's to resurrect? Love them for what they were if you must, but I fail to see what they did really. Couple chart hits... a gyrating video that looked like Elvis Presley circa 1950 on speed..... :D

[cloud]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then because what you define as being a "maverick" I define as being an overly precious, arrogant little dictator with no regard for the fans who were parting with their ticket money.

I thought the Cobain spat basically amounted to Cobain snubbing Axl prompting Axl to throw a hissy fit due to the fact someone had dared treat him like something less than a deity? Correct me if I'm wrong?

I'm really surprised to hear your thoughts on GnR/Axl Rose. You're a Skid Row/Sebastian Bach fan and personally (though I do like them) I've always regarded them as a watered down version of GnR.

Steven Tyler? Aerosmith? I'll be polite and just state I've never been a fan of that band and I really don't get where the "Rose is a wannabe Tyler" comments have come from. I don't see the similarities myself.
Why don't you start an Aerosmith thread? I won't contribute to it mind but still I don't see how they have any relevance here.

It's been the same since my bloody primary school days in that it's fashionable to slag off Axl Rose. He's the Eli Roth of music in that loads of people take pleasure in disliking him. He might as well be the pantomime villain.
Well I like him anyway, a top bloke, a great personality and one of the all time greats.

Regarding the Cobain spat. Well according to Cobain that is how it happened. As I understand it that idiot Courtney Love started giving Axl lip, he then told Cobain to tell his "bitch" to shut up and after a bit of banter Rose offered him out and Cobain shat himself :D (not literally). Aaaah, they were the days.

[Vaughan]

Well - I just checked Amazon and picked up Done With Mirrors for 3 quid. Thanks Jack. :D

There are a ton of similarities between Aerosmith and G & R, but since it doesn't sound like you've followed them I can appreciate why you wouldn't see it. Slash and Izzy are simply caricatures of Perry and Hamilton. And Rose stole most of his look and performance from Tyler.

As bands I know which I prefer. G&R came at the right time, MTV was on a high, and their video got lots of rotation. They had some good songs, so they made money and imploded.

As for the Cobain thing... three druggies used the word "bitch". How hard. :D

Hell, I just checked All Music, and in their outline of Guns and Roses even they draw the connection, so it's far from an original thought on my part.

Surprised you don't like Aerosmith at all, Cloud.

[jacksmith1983]

I'm really surprised to hear your thoughts on GnR/Axl Rose. You're a Skid Row/Sebastian Bach fan and personally (though I do like them) I've always regarded them as a watered down version of GnR.


Yes I do like both Sebastian Bach era Skid Row and Bach's solo stuff. It is fair to say that Skid Row's self-titled debut whilst terrific fun to listen to is basically hair metal by the numbers, however I would not peg them as Guns N' Roses lite. For a start Skid Row did not have the blues influences that Guns N' Roses had, I would say that on their debut they shared more common ground with the likes of The L.A. Guns, Poison, eighties Bon Jovi, etc. By the time of the Slave To The Grind album they had moved into a much heavier, harder territory in terms of their sound and frankly sounded nothing like Guns N' Roses at all, not even vaguely.

Incidentally I'm sure you're aware that Bach and Axl are close friends? I also suggest that (assuming you haven't already) check out Bach's most recent solo album Angel Down as Axl features on three of the songs and they're all crackers.

Regarding the Cobain spat. Well according to Cobain that is how it happened. As I understand it that idiot Courtney Love started giving Axl lip, he then told Cobain to tell his "bitch" to shut up and after a bit of banter Rose offered him out and Cobain shat himself (not literally). Aaaah, they were the days.

Axl was hardly one of the hard men of rock. I seem to remember that he had a similar confrontation with Vince Neil following which Neil (who despite his pretty boy blonde locks is reputedly pretty handy in a brawl) offered to meet Axl for a fight on numerous occassions. Needless to say Axl never showed up...

The fact that Axl was able to give some lip to an introverted, drug addled walking corpse and his insane junkie wife is hardly something worthy of celebration.

Steven Tyler? Aerosmith? I'll be polite and just state I've never been a fan of that band and I really don't get where the "Rose is a wannabe Tyler" comments have come from. I don't see the similarities myself.
Why don't you start an Aerosmith thread? I won't contribute to it mind but still I don't see how they have any relevance here.


Steve Tyler is being discussed because you commented that Axl Rose was I quote "perhaps the most charismatic and talented frontman in the world of metal" and Tyler is one of a bunch who I (and it seems others) view as being a lot more talented and charismatic than Rose. Like I keep saying Rose is a good frontman albeit one let down by his lack of professionalism and tendency to alienate everyone around him.

While we're at it I wouldn't really define Guns N' Roses as "metal" either, their music was blues influenced, radio friendly, hard rock which appealed to the pop crowd as much as it did rock fans. That's not intended as a criticism, it's just the way I always saw their music.

Well - I just checked Amazon and picked up Done With Mirrors for 3 quid. Thanks Jack.

Nice one. I owe it a retrospective listen myself. I know you aren't fond of their second big run throughout the late eighties and nineties through to the present but I do think you should pick up Pump, that was a great record and certainly not the work of a band going through the motions.

[Vaughan]

Night in the Ruts arrived today.... I forgot to even mention that one. :D

[cloud]

I don't deny that Skid Row do have similarities to those bands listed (not sure where you get Bon Jovi from though) but I also see similarities with GnR, in particular his and Axl's style of vocals.

I have indeed heard Angel Down and it's a very good album. The title track in particular is Bach at his finest.

I was always of the understanding that it was Vince Neil who ran scared of Axl. It's clear you find Axl Rose irritating and as you'll probably agree it's always been the same and always will be the same in that he's a love or hate figure. I happen to find him very entertaining and some of the stories I've heard about him have had me in stitches. Another story about him from VH1 Behind The Music I think was when Skid Row were supporting GnR. They had played through their list and were heading backstage to freshen up while GnR were supposed to be coming out. As they were leaving they were ordered back on because Axl Rose hadn't arrived at the arena so they played on and on to the point where they were almost out of material. Anyway they were eventually told they could come off and as Bach passed Axl he asked what happened and Rose calmly said "I was taking a shower" :D what a top bloke!

[drterror666]

Just thought I'd come in on this one. Just what have G'n'R got to do with Aerosmith? That's like me saying that Iron Maiden took their cues from Motorhead! Aerosmith are a more blues inspired rock outfit who definitely had The Rolling Stones in mind when they started. G'n'R were pure punky, garage rock 'n' roll in the beginning, who owe more to The Stooges than any hard rock/AOR outfit. Unless I'm missing something here...

Also, Axel is a great vocalist with a real one-of-a-kind vocal style (although there are better). His onstage antics are probably the result of worshipping many heroes, one I expect may have been Iggy Pop himself. I really can't see where Tyler comes into this.

[Vaughan]

It was Cloud that opened the door, as quoted by Jack. ;)

The question here is "influences". There's hopefully more to rock than simple posing and clothing fashions. I hope anyway. :p

Both G & R and Aerosmith are Blues influenced. Axl's onstage look and antics resemble Tyler (albeit with less talent). Even he's quoted as saying he was influenced by Aerosmith. Slash and Perry - can you really see no connection between them?? Izzy and Hamilton stand to direct comparison.... And are you saying it's a coincidence that G & R's first EP included an Aerosmith cover tune? :D

Two quotes I found on a quick Google:

Axl Rose: "They're (Aerosmith) a tradition that I grew with. They were the only band that the people who lived in my city in Indiana would accept wearing make-up and dress cool. These people thought the Stones were fags, but everybody like Aerosmith... We are influenced by them..."


Izzy Stradlin: "Aerosmith was the main click for their style of two guitars. Right from their first album there is great guitar stuff. From that we understood that you can get some good stuff going with two guitars."

Do a quick Google search (as I did) and I'm a long way from being the first to see the connection between the two - from their direct influences to how they presented themselves etc. I'm amazed you can't see it to be honest. It's too easy to write off similarities as simply being the cliches of rock and roll, imo.

And I'm sorry - but to call G & R "punky" either means you didn't listen to much punk, or you're simply referring to clothing fashions. They are "punky" in a Rolling Stone magazine's fashion pages kind of way. :p

Obviously G & R and Aerosmith are different bands - but there wouldn't have been a G & R without the latter.... Personally speaking, I think Axel is pretty poor, but that's just my view. You couldn't drag me to see G & R live, nor buy their music. But we all like different things. As I said, it's about influences here.

I also found this quote that made me laugh:

Guns 'n' Roses have created a legacy out of one okay-ish album and Axl Rose finding new and exciting ways to be a douchebag.

No relevance, just funny. :D

[Timmy Lea]

Axl himself was always quick to point out that G'n'R Loved Aerosmith. Just check any back issue of Kerrang!, Metal Hmaster or Raw! fae aboot 1987-89 and you'll read that in print.

It's not just audible in the blues'n'funk influences both bands display, but also visible- in their classic period, Rose draped his mikestand with scarves and danced sideways onstage a la Tyler, and Slash's mean, moody, tousled black hair, top hat, low-slung Gibson 'n' fag-outta-corner-of-mouth image was very Perryesque. Similarly Duff McKagan looked somewhat like Tom Hamilton. Tyler himself said in an interview during a joint tour (no pun intended) in 1988: "Sometimes I sit in the dressing room with these guys and it's like I'm with my own band!!"

And Aerosmith between the first album and 'Night In The Ruts' are amazing. Songs like 'Uncle Salty' 'Nobodys Fault' 'Round And Round' 'Last Child' 'Critical Mass' and 'Kings And Queens' have yet to be bettered or equalled either by the band themselves or their imitators. Post- Permanent Vacation, they have mined a less creative furrow (and used outside writers to create too many ballads) but they've never released an album yet I didn't at least partially enjoy. Just Push Play is really underrated, and the song Face from that album almost recaptures their glory days.

However, we're missing the point here. Both bands copied the New York Dolls (some have said that the 'Smiff's image in 74/75 was pretty much a watered down, somewhat butcher version of the Dolls' androgyny, and you can see their point) and the Dolls themselves copied the Stones. From Jagger onwards you can see the tradition of androgynous vocalists with large lips beginning, and from Keef onwards we get the whole concept of the smudged-eyeliner-clad, behatted, 'sleaze dude', chainsmokin' gypsy troubadour guitarist that was to be so oft imitated in following years (although there's a fair bit of Dylan in that concept).

Remember, pretty much everything any post-Elvis band thinks they did, the Stones probably did it before them. Unless you're the Pirates, the Downliners Sect or the Ides Of March.

[MarcMorris]

I concur 100% with Timmy on this.

[Timmy Lea]

Thankyou kind sir. Bloody hell, you're a quick reader...

[MarcMorris]

Not bad considering I've been partying hard after Frighfest every night for the past four days. ;)

[Timmy Lea]

Just sent you a couple of PMS.

[Vaughan]

Absolutely. I appreciate we can trace these elements back quite some way, always via The Rolling Stones at some point. I was simply trying to state that Aerosmith had a big influence on Guns and Roses. I'm surprised more people can't see/hear it to be frank. And I'm surprised that Cloud - a fan of Guns and Roses - has such a strong reaction (guessing from what he wrote) against Aerosmith, at least in their heyday. But life is full of surprises, and it's not a knock on his tastes. If you grew up in the 80's then Aerosmith were hitting a bad period throughout.... Guns and Roses got more airplay etc.

It's all rock and roll. :)

[cloud]

I wouldn't say my reaction was strong. I just didn't and can't understand so much emphasis on one influence. Most bands have dozens of influences.

The Aerosmith I grew up listening to was their 80s and 90s material and I found most of it to be awful. Cack like Love In An Elevator and Dude Looks Like A Lady makes me automatically switch channels!

[MarcMorris]

You simply haven't heard the real Aerosmith, who have been around since the Seventies. Check out their early multi-Platinum selling hard rock albums.

wiki: Aerosmith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosmith)

Both Toys in the Attic and Rocks are highly regarded, especially in the hard rock genre, and appear on such lists as Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time, and are cited by members of Guns N' Roses, Metallica, and Mötley Crüe as having large influences on their music.

Aerosmith: The Collection (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000620N4K/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05) [Aerosmith + Get Your Wings + Toys in the Attic]

Aerosmith: Rocks (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000026FT7/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DD8YGFH5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000620N4K/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V8ia-iz8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000026FT7/ref=nosim?tag=mondoerotico05)

[Vaughan]

I wouldn't say my reaction was strong. I just didn't and can't understand so much emphasis on one influence. Most bands have dozens of influences.

Fair enough. The emphasis here is that of Guns and Roses themselves. Sure they have lots of influences, but Aerosmith is a self-proclaimed and heavy influence. As I stated earlier, this is illustrated by their covering an Aerosmith tune on their first EP and various interviews. This isn't a generic "influence" but a major part of how they started and what they became. And given your comments about how you feel about Axel as a performer - I thought it would interest you to know whom Axel was borrowing from directly, rather than generically.

The Aerosmith I grew up listening to was their 80s and 90s material and I found most of it to be awful. Cack like Love In An Elevator and Dude Looks Like A Lady makes me automatically switch channels!

I suspected as such. As you'll note from my mention of Aerosmith in this thread, I've rebought everything up to Night in the Ruts. After that...... well, it's the stuff you're talking about. So you and I share reservations.

If you get a chance give the early material a try. You might enjoy it.

I'm somewhat tempted to try later material based on a couple comments here, but I'm hesitant. Those bloody ballads do my head in......

[cloud]

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll probably give those albums a listen soon.

By the way I agree with an earlier comment likening Axl to Iggy Pop. If I were asked to name an earlier artist who Rose's style most resembled I'd probably have named Iggy Pop.

EDIT:

Aerosmith ain't all bad btw, who remembers the old Arcade game called Revolution X? It was later released on the PlayStation One and I bought a copy. It was a shoot 'em up where you had to kill the bad guys and get to an Aerosmith concert. Bloody great fun!

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2006-10/aerosmith-revolution-x.jpg

[drterror666]

I was simply trying to state that Aerosmith had a big influence on Guns and Roses. I'm surprised more people can't see/hear it to be frank.

Nope, you're definitely on your own there. I would say that G'n'R had more to with Hanoi Rocks than Aerosmith. Anyway, just like Lars in Metallica, Axel comes out with all kind of crap in the interviews he's done. I'm surprised he didn't link their sound to The Beatles!

Oh, and I stick with 'punky', but in a sleazy way. :p

[Vaughan]

Sleaze always wins. I hand it to ya. :D

[jacksmith1983]

Aerosmith ain't all bad btw, who remembers the old Arcade game called Revolution X? It was later released on the PlayStation One and I bought a copy. It was a shoot 'em up where you had to kill the bad guys and get to an Aerosmith concert. Bloody great fun!

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2006-10/aerosmith-revolution-x.jpg

I actually used to own this, it was one of the first games I bought after getting my first Playstation in 1997. If I remember rightly the Playstation port of Revolution X was developed very early in the consoles life, before it actually had a light gun developed for it. Therefore, it was basically a light gun game which you had to play with a joypad! :(

Fun for five minutes then it became very repetitive in that depressing bash the same button over and over kind of way. I seem to recall that I traded it in against something else pretty sharpish. Give me Lethal Enforcers any day... ;)

I hear the original coin-op was a lot better than any of the console versions (it came out for the Megadrive aswell) although I never played it myself. In fairness as a promotional tool for Aerosmith it was great, I had never really listened to much of their music beforehand and I can remember impulse buying the bands Big Ones retrospective on cassette shortly after playing Revolution X.

On a similar note does anyone remember the Motley Crue cash in pinball game Crueball for the Megadrive/SNES? Basically a really rubbish 16-bit pinball with unrecognisible versions of Live Wire , Dr Feelgood and one or two others I could never make out blaring away in the background.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Cr%C3%BCe_Ball_Coverart.png

Didn't Iron Maiden have a computer game aswell during the Blaze Bayley era?

The Aerosmith I grew up listening to was their 80s and 90s material and I found most of it to be awful. Cack like Love In An Elevator and Dude Looks Like A Lady makes me automatically switch channels!

I hate Dude Looks Like A Lady too for what its worth, awful song! I'm with you all the way on that one. I do have a soft spot for Love In An Elevator though I must admit.

While their rejuvinated commercial success in the late eighties onwards did come at a price, that era has still had its bright spots. The odd duff track aside both Permanaent Vacation and in particular Pump are good albums. Personally I think some of their songs from the 1987 - 1994 era such as The Other Side, Janie's Got A Gun, Livin On The Edge, Eat The Rich and Deuces Are Wild stand up as good, fun anthemic rock songs. They didn't just do cheesy ballads...

[drterror666]

Didn't Iron Maiden have a computer game aswell during the Blaze Bayley era?

That'll be dismal lightgun effort, Ed Hunter. More info here (http://www.maiden-world.com/edhunter.html).

[jacksmith1983]

Just to rub the salt in a bit more here's a few more frontmen who I think belong in the "better than Axl Rose" category... Alice Cooper, Lemmy, Paul Stanley, Ginger, Dave Lee Roth, Sammy Hagar, Bon Scott, Brian Johnson, Joey Belladonna, Mike Patton.

:D

[drterror666]

Bon Scott was in a class of his own, both lyrically and vocally. He's the reason I'm into metal!

[Timmy Lea]

Not particularly a fan of Joey Belladonna. His vocals never suited thrash, and Anthrax's albums were generally better (and heavier) once John Bush joined. Why they reunited with Joey a couple of years back is hardly a mystery- they did it for the money, like Priest, Van Halen and Maiden did- but in this case the joke's on them, as he took the money and ****ed off. Serves them (or rather those arseholes at The Agency Group who orchestrated the whole thing) right, because now the band are practically defunct.

I love all the other frontmen mentioned though. Although Roth is now officially a bald old queen with no singing voice left to speak of. But he was God for a short while (around the 'Eat Em And Smile' era)

[drterror666]

Has anyone mentioned Robert Plant yet? That guy was the original rock god and he can still pull it off to this day! Coverdale is nearly that good, but not quite.

Have to agree about Belladonna though. I never really took to him although I like the Among The Living album from his period. I liked their first album too, with Neil Turbin.

[jacksmith1983]

Sorry but cannot agree with either of you about Joey Belladonna. He was the Bruce Dickinson of thrash metal and how anyone can listen to songs like Madhouse, I Am The Law, Belly Of The Beast, Caught In A Mosh, etc and then say his vocals "don't suit thrash" is something I cannot really fathom. For me the the trio of Spreading The Disease, Among The Living and Persistence Of Time are Anthrax at their peak, just classic, classic metal albums. Even the critically panned State Of Euphoria is underrated and features some great tracks such as Antisocial and Now It's Dark.

For what it's worth I never had much time for the bands diversions into rap-rock territory in the early nineties. If I had been in Joey's shoes and reduced to performing turgid commercialised nonsense like Bring The Noise I'd have left too.

I won't knock John Bush too much because I really do think Sound Of White Noise was a fantastic record, but at the same time he lacked Belladonna's charisma and presence. All of the bands subsequent material was pretty uninspired and forgettable to my ears although to be fair 2003's We've Come For You All had its moments.

The truth is that without Belladonna aboard Anthrax were/are just another metal band.

[MarcMorris]

Just thought I'd post an update on the leaked Chinese Democracy tracks..

Antiquiet: The United States Of America Vs. Me (http://www.antiquiet.com/editorials/2008/09/the-united-states-of-america-vs-me/)

Rolling Stone: Guns n’ Roses’ “Chinese Democracy” Leaker Gets FBI Visit (http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/06/24/guns-n-roses-chinese-democracy-leaker-gets-fbi-visit/)

AppScout: FBI Arrest of Guns N' Roses Blogger Backfires (http://www.appscout.com/2008/09/fbi_arrest_of_guns_n_roses_blo.php)

The Signal: 'Chinese Democracy' leaker endures unfair legal crackdown (http://media.www.signal-online.net/media/storage/paper771/news/2008/09/17/Entertainment/chinese.Democracy.Leaker.Endures.Unfair.Legal.Crackdown-3433549.shtml)

Billboard: Best Buy Snags Guns N' Roses Album Exclusive (http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003855688)

[christats]

I've not really gone out of my way to hear any of the new Guns and Roses album,but I keep hearing an advert on Talksport.
The snippet I keep hearing sounds like a bad Metallica record.
(A band who Guns and Roses had a feud with,or was that some other band.?)

Personally I ain't bothered by the release tomorrow.

[Myersfan73]

You can check out the whole album free at Guns N' Roses MySpace. One decent track IMO, the title track! Waste of nine years, the raw energy that made Appetite for destruction has long since passed by.

Chinese Democracy: myspace/Guns N' Roses (http://www.myspace.com/gunsnroses)

[Marty Moose]

I personally can't get enough of the new record.

OK it's a multimillion dollar game of ProTools Jenga, where Rose has stacked layer upon layer on each song, and there's not a second goes by where you aren't slightly worried that the whole deck of cards isn't going to come crashing down around your ears, like a fat man in a bathtub plummeting down a incline and narrowly missing a line of trees. Or something.

For all this, and the fact that over a decade in gestation has robbed the album of any real vitality or organic sound, I still love it. At 14 tracks, many pushing 5-6 minutes it's a demanding listen, and the sheer wealth of instrumentation is daunting. But I'd rather this bizarre Frankenstein's monster mismash of idea's than another tired blues rock album like Slash has been putting out for the last ten years.

The only way this was going to come out smelling of roses was if it was the greatest rock album ever committed to tape. It isn't by a long chalk, but it'll still sell by the buckeload. The record company are in too deep now to let the album tank, it'll be marketed like a motherf**ker, and it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't break a million copies in the first week.

[drterror666]

The record company are in too deep now to let the album tank, it'll be marketed like a motherf**ker, and it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't break a million copies in the first week.

Yes, I bet the yuppies were literally pulling themselves apart to get a copy! Like, let's headbang, yah! :rolleyes:

[jacksmith1983]

Well I finally listened to Chinese Democracy this morning and to be honest after all the years of waiting, pulled release dates and misplaced hype it's a bit of an anti-climax, which is what I was expecting really.

Having said that Chinese Democracy is certainly not a bad album by any extent of the imagination. This is in my opinion a very contemporary sounding record. On one hand this is quite a refreshing surprise, but on the other hand it's rather disappointing that Axl makes little to no attempt to recapture the sleazy, rough and ready vibe that made Appetite For Destruction so memorable. But did anyone really expect him too? For me the opening trio of the title track, Shackler's Revenge and Better (all fairly straightforward, ballsy sounding hard rock songs) are easily the best tracks, the rest is over-produced and quite sprawling in places but never less than listenable and thankfully free of the pompous, overblown pretentiousness which marred parts Use Your Illusions I and II which I feared would probably be rife on this album.

So was Chinese Democracy worth the 17 year wait? Frankly no it wasn't. Is it over-produced to hell? Defintely. Is it fifteen minutes too long? Possibly. But accepted to its own terms this is a decent modern rock album, which while hardly life affirming stuff did at least surpass my (admittedly rather low) expectations. I wouldn't even be surprised if some of the songs start growing on me a little more with repeated listens.

Worth at least one listen I reckon.

[drterror666]

Where's cloud? It seems that since they released the album, he's not been around. I've snagged my copy now and will be listening to it soon.

[the dude]

Awful album, pure and simple. The first two or three tracks are solid rock songs but the rest of the album is just overblown and not something I can really rock out to. I knew this was to be the case anyway so my expectations weren't shattered. Axl Rose should have just released this as a solo album rather than Guns N' Roses. Glad someone bought this for me.

[jacksmith1983]

Hmm I have to say I think your reaction is a little harsh to be honest the dude although you are obviously entitled to your opinion.

The only real problem I have with Chinese Democracy is that there's no cohesion or flow to it as an album. It feels like a bunch of collected songs thrown together on a CD, which is of course basically what Chinese Democracy is to all intents and purposes.

Having said that I stand my my previous opinion that all the songs are however rock solid and some such as Madagascar have begun to really grow on me with repeated listens.

For what it is Chinese Democracy is not bad at all. I'd take it over either of the overrated Velvet Revolver albums anyday...

[Timmy Lea]

Well, having now 'obtained' a copy, and listened to it about six times, I can honestly say that despite al my earlier cynicism, it rules!!

There are many faults with it, of course. For a start, too many of the songs meander endlessly without going anywhere melodically, there's no one 'defining' moment like, say, DON'T CRY or COMA were for ILLUSION 1, and it does sound like the work of a billion session musicians cobbled together over a period of 15 years with a hotchpotch of different sound textures cribbed from whoever was 'in' (Prodigy, NIN, Rob Zombie, Korn, Rammstein, Pumpkins, Radiohead, even The Darkness) at the time he wrote it. Which, of course, is exactly what it is.

However, Waxl (for all his bloated, pompous egomania and stupid ginger dreadlocks) has never fought shy of acknowledging his four major influences, Queen, Bowie, ELO and Elton John- and it's still those that form the core of the album. Even amongst all the faux-industrial metal riffage, squalling sub-Corgan soloing and overlayered legions of backing vocalists and orchestrata, the plaintive vocal and piano melodies, mixed with that strange touch of Anglophilia he managed to bring to even the most bloated of American rock albums, still win through.

For me, the winning songs are 'Catcher In The Rye' (with a very All The Young Dudes- esque 'na na na' chorus) 'This I Love' (which is so florid, overblown and camp it makes Elton and Freddie sound like Mustaine and Hetfield by comparison) annd the closer 'Prostitute' where one gets to imagine what would have happened had Barry Gibb fronted a post-grunge melodic rock band. As for the rest, they aren't as immediately memorable, but they'll become part of me in time.

The fact is, for an album I never expected to see completed, let alone to be able to discuss my opinion of on the internet, THE CHINESE DEMOCRACY ain't half bad at all. It's not as good as it should have been after 15 years, but considering that I never thought it would be released (and that even if I was wrong, it would turn out to be complete shit anyway) I have to say I'm pleasantly amazed!

How long that amazement will last remains to be seen, and maybe the novelty will wear off by Hogmanay and I'll consign it to a box, never to be listened to again- but right now, it's my most played album of the week. Of course, it's not a true Gunners album, and I doubt we'll ever see one of those again, even if the original five reunite for a big bucks tour in '09 as has been rumoured. It's a solo record, made alone with 'assistance' from various friends and relations, by a man driven by solitary demons completely and utterly incapable of relating to anyone on a collaboratory level. He couldn't have made it any other way, and you know what? Maybe it's all the better for it, the terrible Martin Luther King sample on 'Madagascar' notwithstanding.

Right, now where's my free Dr Pepper?

[cloud]

This was my first ever pre-order though in all honesty I was left a little bit disappointed. The reasons for that are a) apart from 'Scraped' I had heard every track and it wasn't going to be a 3 disc box set like Sebastian Bach hinted some time ago and b) apart from 'If The World' every song was more or less the same as the demos that had been doing the rounds on various websites months before its eventual release. This isn't necessarily a criticism because I fell in love with those demos and have listened to them dozens of times since the album came out but with all the waiting I did expect Mr. Rose to have something big lined up for us fans who had remained patient when others were talking crap in fear of not receiving a free Dr. Pepper or whatever.

As mentioned before, I adore this album and I regard it as some of the best stuff Axl Rose has ever recorded. I think Buckethead did a fantastic job in place of Slash and I regard 'There Was A Time' as one of their best epics. In 'Estranged' for example it was a tale of two halves and while for the most part it was an awesome piece of song writing it did become a bit too ambitious as it went on; I often skip at the 5 minute mark. With T.W.A.T. though it was what I'd describe as being the perfect song, it had everything you could possibly want and never once outstayed its welcome. That alone - for me at least - shows how much Rose has matured and the ego that did bog down parts of the Illusion albums is not found here. Every song has its own merit and there's no filler though the only song that was truly ****ed up was If The World, the demo was awesome but they've polished it a little too much and the edge that made it sound eerily like Faith No More around their 'Angel Dust' days has all but vanished.

The other songs range from very good (Shackler's Revenge, Prostitute, Madagascar, Scraped, I.R.S. and Better), to good (Chinese Democracy, Rhiad n' The Bedouins and This I Love) to so-so (Street Of Dreams, Sorry and Catcher In The Rye).

It's a mixed bag for sure and no two songs sound the same but it's what makes it interesting. I do accept that it does and will continue to divide opinions though.

[Vaughan]

It's rubbish. And there's no reason for anyone to listen to it. Music has moved on. Thank God. I was right. Case rested.

[MarcMorris]

So have movies but that doesn't stop us watching our fave director's new films... ;)

[Vaughan]

Okay - so listen to it once. Maybe for 90 seconds. Should be enough. Whatever the worse you could imagine was.. this is worse. :D

[MarcMorris]

I'm not a fan of their's myself (although I did get to see them twice back in the day).

Appetite is their best. I do have a couple of friends who like this new one a lot though.

[Vaughan]

Hey - there will always be those stuck in the past. No absolutes here. People like living in the past. It's not exactly a future though is it? Maybe I'll go grow my hair long.

[jacksmith1983]

To be honest I think you're being a bit too dismissive Vaughan me old china, although obviously you're entitled to your opinion.

The problem I had with Chinese Democracy is that due to the way it was put together it feels like a disjointed collection of songs which Axl has had floating around for years. Which of course it is. It really doesn't feel like a cohesive album at all. The other is that there isn't really any fast, direct songs here on a par with the likes of You Could Be Mine which were just, you know, fun to rock out to.

Having said that I still stand by my initial judgement that Chinese Democracy isn't too bad. The likes of This I Love, Madagascar and Shackler's Revenge are all decent tracks. As a whole it's not a great record in my opinion, but at the same time it's not too bad either.

But then I like listening to Poison so what do I know... :D

To be truthful I always found the "original" Guns N' Roses to be wildly overrated at any rate. I agree with Marc that they peaked early on with the superb Appetite For Destruction. Use Your Illusions I and II both feature moments of brilliance (Yesterdays, Coma and You Could Be Mine are the highlights for me) but overall I found them patchy and overblown. The Spaghetti Incident meanwhile, save for a couple of OK songs, was dire.

[MarcMorris]

But then I like listening to Poison so what do I know...

Another hair-metal band I saw back in the day ;)

Anyone remember Girl and LA Guns? :)

[jacksmith1983]

People like living in the past. It's not exactly a future though is it? Maybe I'll go grow my hair long.

Well in 48 hours time I'll be attending "Priest Feast" at the Birmingham NEC arena featuring Judas Priest, Megadeth and Testament so bearing that in mind I'll treat your "living in the past" and "grow my hair long" digs with the scorn they so rightfully deserve! :p

And yes Marc I still listen to the L.A. Guns and like both their old stuff (Never Enough... what a song! :cool:) and their more recent stuff.

Do you remember Ratt, Warrant and Faster Pussycat?

[Vaughan]

Yes, let's all apologize to Cloud. Me? No. I listened. It's rubbish as I thought. It'll have no impact on anything. I'll wait to see if I'm wrong. But I don't think I am. He'll trade in on the name, and nostalgia will anchor people in a moment. The music though is utterly pointless.

[jacksmith1983]

To be honest I don't really think he's anchored people on the moment at all. Most music critics have lambasted Chinese Democracy and to be truthful most rock fans, jaded by over a decade of misplaced hype, have been quite scornful and dubious about it too. It was hardly proclaimed as the must buy album of 2008 or anything like that.

As I said before you're entitled to your opinion. You thought it was rubbish. Fair enough. However, as I said before, I thought it had a few decent tracks and the rest was fairly inoffensive aswell. To be fair that's more than I expected from it beforehand.

[Vaughan]

To be fair that's more than I expected from it beforehand.

All to do with expectation I guess. I expected nothing, got less. Maybe others were drawn elsewhere. I insist that time will tell - and this won't be an influence on anything. Nor does it represent a worthy past. Just....... noise really. As I say, expected nothing, got less.

[jacksmith1983]

I agree totally in that sense. A decade on from now Chinese Democracy will be little more than a largely forgotten swansong to the strange, strange story of Guns N' Roses / Axl Rose.

[AndyBlade]

As I mentioned months ago in this thread, back in ye olden days I really liked Guns N Roses and saw them live a couple of times. I still listen to Appetite For Destruction and Use Your Illusion Vols 1 and 2 now and again.

When did Chinese Democracy come out? October time, something like that? I've never heard any of it, save for a few seconds of the end of one of the tracks on the radio one day, and I dont intend on buying it. The reason being that I dont have any interest in it at all. Guns N Roses were 15 years ago for me. I liked them at the time, and still do like a lot of the old stuff, but I dont have any desire to catch up with them (or him, seeing as Axl Rose is the only one left) It might be a great album, it might not - I dont know. I dont really care. Too much time has moved on for me to be sufficiently interested enough to want to go to the effort of listening.

Jack mentioned Faster Pussycat and Warrant - back in 1991 or 1992 I saw both play on the same bill at Nottingham Rock City....

[Vaughan]

Aerosmith? How about them? :D

[MarcMorris]

I saw them too in the 80s, although their early stuff was way better.

[jacksmith1983]

For me the likes of Faster Pussycat and Warrant were the band that Aerosmith might have been... :D

Seriously? For me Aerosmith pretty much tarnished their legacy with everything that came after the excellent Pump.

[Vaughan]

Nah. To believe that Guns and Roses would have been totally irrelevant. Latter day Aerosmith isn't good, but it doesn't destroy their early greatness.

Look. gun & Roses were never really any good. Popular in the age of video.... blah blah blah.... but they're not important in any regard, imo.

Each to their own, but to revive this thread...... well, the music is a nonsense. Simple as. We could debate until the end of time and not agree. :D

[Timmy Lea]

Another hair-metal band I saw back in the day ;)

Anyone remember Girl and LA Guns? :)

I promoted 'em a couple of times, LA Guns that is. Amazed at how many young girls they could still pull, even in this decade. One of them was Oliver Tobias' daughter!! I didn't manage to do unto her as her dad did to all the girls in THE STUD though, no matter how much I would have liked to!!

[cloud]

Music has moved on, I completely agree with you there but is that a positive thing? For some maybe it is, for me it isn't. I seldom watched music television anyway but I never watch it now and I never play the radio when back in the '90s and early '00s I'd devote 2 hours of my life to it from midnight until 2 am on a Wednesday night. It was the little airplay the music I liked got (thank God for small mercies) because most people were (and are) too interested in listening to pop, r 'n b, (c)rap and other stuff of that ilk - no offence to anyone who does like that kind of music by the way.

There are some good bands out there now, some outstanding bands but as far as I'm concerned, all in all, the music world is in a state, and in all my 25 years it's the lowest I've ever seen it - at least with the music I listen to. So to see an old favourite release a new album (and a very good one at that) is a breath of fresh air and exactly what the world needs. You disagree, that's fine but then our taste in music is worlds apart from what I've gathered. Personally I think jazz is complete and utter rubbish but I don't make a song and a dance about it.

I still listen to the L.A. Guns and like both their old stuff (Never Enough... what a song! ) and their more recent stuff.

Now there's another blast from the past. I haven't listened to them in a long time, I think it's time to revisit.

[jacksmith1983]

I agree 100% Cloud. With the exception of a few acts which I like I'm of the firm opinion that modern music is in the shitter and has been for some time. Mainstream radio and the digital music channels on TV feed us a steady diet of safe, irritating asinine pop cheese, generic R&B and grating "dance" music. Meanwhile most of what passes for "alternative" or "rock" music these days just so happens to be a big pile of old bollocks as well. Don't start me on any of this indie nonsense. Franz Ferdinand, Arctic Monkeys, Pothead Pete and all that rubbish. And as for the likes of Fallout Boy and My Chemical Romance? Music for overgrown, floppy fringed bed wetters if you ask me. Robert Smith just called guys and he wants his eyeliner back and he also said don't give up your day jobs while you're at it. Seriously though it really is a bunch of crap isn't it? Even most of what passes for metal these days is invariably a bunch of soulless screaming.

Taking all that into consideration is it really any wonder that some people are happy about the release of Chinese Democracy? As mediocre as it may be it's still better than most of the guff that passes for rock music here in 2008.

As for me? Well I'll stick to revisiting the oceans of classic, timeless rock/metal/alternative stuff from the eighties and nineties. If that makes me guilty of being a young throwback wallowing in a sense of misplaced nostalgia then I'll readily plead guilty as charged! :D

So to see an old favourite release a new album (and a very good one at that) is a breath of fresh air and exactly what the world needs. You disagree, that's fine but then our taste in music is worlds apart from what I've gathered. Personally I think jazz is complete and utter rubbish but I don't make a song and a dance about it.

That's pretty much how I feel too. Thanks the lord that some of the old guard of rock and metal are still releasing good material and touring. Otherwise I don't think I'd find anything to get excited about musically at all. As for jazz? To be honest it does nothing for me either, but as you say each to their own. Some people like jazz, others like thrash metal. Neither is right, neither is wrong. Both genre's feature lots of worthy, talented acts to be enjoyed by the person who has the ear for that type of music. To coin an old cliche it's all just a matter of taste.

Finally Cloud if you're planning on revisiting the L.A. Guns might I suggest that in addition to the classic stuff you also check out 2005's Tales From The Strip album. Great nostalgic fun with some terrific songs such as Vampire, Electric Neon Sunset and Holllywood's Burning. I loved it.

While we're busy name checking cheesy poodle haired rock bands does anyone else remember Cinderella, Tyketto or Love/Hate?

[Vaughan]

A lot of what is being discussed here is to do with our own formative years in musical terms. Is music now really worse than it was in the 90's? I'm sure most youngsters today would disagree. People probably listen to more music today since it's so readily available.

I wasn't a child of the 90's (nor the 80's) and to be honest I think the vast majority of music from the 90's was rubbish. Guns and Roses were never any good, and while there might have been a small group of hair bands in the 80's and so on that I enjoyed, they weren't really any good either. However, there's a lot of material from the 70's I have a soft spot for - but it's welded in my head as I was part of the era.

Music today is more available, and more varied. The influences mount up. Which doesn't make it automagically better, but it's there. Personally I got pretty tired of just about all rock quite some time ago - hence I found solace in Jazz and Classical music. In the 80's and 90's rock music was assaulted and has remained on life support ever since. For me anyway. But these "come backs" are rarely a good idea. I mean, you'd think the musicians would have gotten over it. To come back and use the Guns and Roses name, when there's only one member left (as I recall) is a tad ridiculous and suggests that as much as anything else, Rose simply wanted to cash in on the name. All pretty cynical really.

[drterror666]

Listen to Tigertailz, boyo! They rock!

[drterror666]

Look. (G)un(s) & Roses were never really any good.

They weren't? Appetite For Destruction was made by someone else then? You can't just dismiss the band like that, seeing as they made one of the best metal albums of all time!

Naughty Vaughan! ;)

[Vaughan]

Well, I don't rock too much these days Drterror, more like roll. :D

(where the heck you been, anyway?)

[drterror666]

Oh, I'm around, I just can't post like I used to due to time restraints. I'd love to post more.

Oh, and I agree with you that G'n'R's new album is dire. I just can't get into it. I've been listening to Saxon!

[bladesew]

Listen to Tigertailz, boyo! They rock!

I'm ashamed to say I had an EP by this group when I was a lad. I was also a fan of Manowar, Helloween, King Diamond and other borderline pantomime acts.

The only rock/metal band I still listen to regularly is Megadeth.

[drterror666]

I was also a fan of Manowar, Helloween, King Diamond and other borderline pantomime acts.

Never, ever call King Diamond a pantomime act. I will come round and kill you! ;) :D I'll let you off for the others...

[AndyBlade]

Listen to Tigertailz, boyo! They rock!

I've had tinnitus ever since I was 15 (and its getting worse as I'm getting older) Tigertailz are responsible for this. They played a gig at Sheffield University mid 1990 and we ended up standing right next to one of those huge marshall speakers right at the front. My friends and I didnt realise until we got outside into the quiet that we'd all gone incredibly deaf. It took a few days for my hearing to clear, and I convinced myself I'd never hear properly again. Since then, I've had a whistling sound in my ears constantly.

See kids - loud music really does damage your hearing.

And Love/Hate - yes, saw them live a couple of times too. Blackout In The Red Room is still one of my favourite albums.

[vigilanteforce]

I saw them live back in 1993- it was the first gig I ever attended. My music tastes have changed quite a bit since then of course. I listened to a few songs from their new album and the new material doesn't even sound like GNR. They are a totally different band today, perhaps they should have picked a new name.

[cloud]

Dr., in all honesty I didn't expect you to like Chinese Democracy, it was just a feeling I got. As I say, I don't think it is for everyone but then Axl Rose is one of the most uncompromising people in music so who'd have it any other way?

The likes of Franz Ferdinand and the like are a pain in the backside. And don't get me started on metalcore. If you've heard one band/song then you've heard them all. I suppose if the formula was good to start off with it would be alright but it's the frigging MySpace generation now. A band I liked a lot back in the '90s - Stabbing Westward - have long since finished but their vocalist started another band called The Dreaming and not only have they got an emo style sound but they've also dropped all of the NIN influence that made SW so great and to top it off they have the emo image. Unforgivable!

Regarding LA Guns, I was playing them for a bit last night. For some reason it got me thinking about Tommy Vance, God knows why though.

[Vaughan]

Axl Rose is one of the most uncompromising people in music

How so? He might be uncompromising - but "one of the most uncompromising in music"? Going a bit far, no? He's not sop uncompromising that he hasn't cashed in on the Guns and Roses name.

There's a story on the BBC site today on Morrisey. he was asked about a new Smiths project, and he basically says "I don't live in the past." Way more uncompromising than Axl Rose who hasn't moved on musically in..... what is it now, 15 years or so?

Sounds like more Rose hype to me.

[cloud]

Yeah, OK, whatever you say. Look, we're not going to agree so shall we quit while we're ahead? I think we should because really, what is the point in this? You obviously hold no affection for Axl Rose or Guns N' Roses, that became apparent quite a few posts ago so why do you continue to protest? Regardless though I refuse to get into a spat with you about it, life is too short. One bit of advice though, stick to the jazz, Guns N' Roses clearly ain't for you.

[MarcMorris]

BBC News: Anti-piracy ad for Roses blogger (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8151282.stm)

[magnus jansson]

Ha, Guns n´roses was the first real concert i ever went to! I must have been around 13/14, it was sometime before those dubble-lps were released so they played a lot of songs noone had heard before. Can´t say i was much of a fan really, it was a friend of mine who wanted to go and asked me for company. I went out and bought a pirate-tape of Appetite for Destruction and liked it a lot. Cool show, the band was very late, and Axl wore a kilt. Skid Row played first. A good time for sure.
Didn´t they release a Live lp early on by the way? If i´m not mistaked it was some reall good songs on that one.
My second concert about a year later was Sonic youth, they played "Schizofrenia" and "teen age riot", after that Guns didn´t mean much anymore, but it´s a fun memory.

[jacksmith1983]

Hi Magnus, yes indeed Guns N' Roses first releae was the four track EP Live Like a Suicide which featured covers of Rose Tattoo's Nice Boys and Aerosmith's Mama Kin and two original recordings Reckless Life and Move To The City. However, despite its title this was actually not live material at all, it was a studio recording with dubbed on crowd noise.

The four tracks that were on Live Like a Suicide also form the first four tracks of the eight track 1988 stopgap release G N' R Lies which also included the brilliant Patience and the infamous One In A Million, the lyrical content of which resulted in Axl Rose being accused of racism by some people who seemingly interpret everything they read, see of hear literally.

[claire]

In print at least, they're not the best of lyrics:

Immigrants and faggots
They make no sense to me
They come to our country
And think they'll do as they please
Like start some mini Iran
Or spread some ****ing disease
They talk so many goddamn ways
It's all greek to me

I remember the mini-furore those lyrics caused, and how sheepish Slash in particular was in the press afterwards.

I saw GnR twice - once in 91 at Gateshead (with Soundgarden and Faith No More supporting) and again earlier this decade at Leeds Carling Festival.

The Gateshead gig was great, with a line-up that still included Duff and Slash. The Leeds gig was not the same - Buckethead and a few more faceless musicians knocking out old songs while Axl whined away (after delaying the start of his set by over an hour because, apparently, he refused to take to the stage until the organisers had got a limo to drive him 200 metres from his dressing room to the stage. A myth, most likely, but a good story neverthless).

[magnus jansson]

Jack; yeah, that´s the one. So they used the old "crowd in the studio" rutine, haha, can´t remember if it was any talking between songs on it... would make it even more fun. As far as i can remember these 4 songs were among the better ones, but must be some 10 years at least since i last heard them...

[cloud]

It wasn't a live album after all?!?!??? No way! I never knew this. Thanks Jack, you've just destroyed my childhood! :(:)

[jacksmith1983]

In print at least, they're not the best of lyrics:

Immigrants and faggots
They make no sense to me
They come to our country
And think they'll do as they please
Like start some mini Iran
Or spread some ****ing disease
They talk so many goddamn ways
It's all greek to me

I remember the mini-furore those lyrics caused, and how sheepish Slash in particular was in the press afterwards.


To be fair it's easy to see how some people might construe those lyrics as offensive. However, it's important to view them within the context in which they were written. I believe One In A Million was actually written by Rose as an angry response to having been hussled whilst in Los Angeles and was really intended as a commentary on specific bad experiences with specific people and the social conditions which breed such behaviour, not as an attempt to denegrate all blacks and homosexual's. As I say it's not hard to see why people were offended, but I still maintain that those lyrics in theirself do not prove Axl Rose to be a racist or a homophobe and the whole furore which followed which included Vernon Reid of Living Colour steaming in for no discernable reason was a complere over-reaction.

Incidentally Claire did you witness any of the "trouble" which took place after Guns N' Roses' set at Leeds that year?

It wasn't a live album after all?!?!??? No way! I never knew this. Thanks Jack, you've just destroyed my childhood!

Sorry mate but it's true. They were demo's which had crowd noise added to them afterwards.

[claire]

Incidentally Claire did you witness any of the "trouble" which took place after Guns N' Roses' set at Leeds that year?

The only trouble I recall was a load of fires being lit at the end of one night. They started by being lit in front of the main stage (very eerie once the place cleared, it looked like an apocalyptic wasteland) and later people were setting fire to the portaloos on the campsite - which, as you can imagine, were exploding.

I seem to think that was the night Foo Fighters played though, but I get mixed up. We went two years running, and I forget who was on what night, but over the six nights (both years) we got to see some great - and not so great - acts: Guns N Roses, Foo Fighters, Metallica, Jane's Addiction, Billy Talent, Turbonegro, Blur, Slipknot, System Of A Down, Mars Volta, White Stripes, The Strokes, The Offspring, Primal Scream, Dillinger Escape Plan, Franz Ferdinand etc. Oh, and Andrew WK, who was unintenionally hilarious.

One thing I remember most vividly about the GnR set though was this lad who latched onto us in the crowd, who insisted that Axl Rose was his uncle. When Axl (finally) got on stage, this lad started shouting "Uncle Axl! It's me!" to no avail. Yeah, weird that he didn't know his uncle's real name is Bill.

Oh, I've just thought. Do you mean the bit where Axl implied that the crowd should riot? He got a signal from the side of the stage to wrap things up, but because of his delays he'd only played about 50 minutes of music. So he told the crowd that he'd been told to make that song his last one. Cue booing. Then he said something like "of course, if you lot don't like it, I can't stop you from trashing this place. It's not like I've told you to do it" - obviously referring to that accusation of him inciting a riot stateside which had occurred a couple of months beforehand. On this occasion though, the crowd cheered, Axl pressed his finger in his ear as if receiving a message through an earpiece, and said something like "I've just heard, we can carry on". Admittedly it looked staged, and happily there were no riots.